[Catholic Caucus] EXCLUSIVE: Chartres pilgrimage will continue even if Vatican cracks down, president says

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Posted on 12/10/2024 10:07:33 AM PST by ebb tide

In an exclusive interview with LifeSiteNews, Notre Dame de Chrétienté president Jean des Tauriers explained why he feels serene and optimistic about the future of the traditional Chartres pilgrimage.

Thousands of Catholics gather for the 2024 Chartres Pilgrimage

In a report published last Thursday by the French newspaper La Croix, it was rumored that a “major annual French pilgrimage promoting the Tridentine [i.e. Traditional Latin] Mass is under Vatican review. The Dicastery for Divine Worship believes organizers are not adhering to current regulations for celebrating Mass following the pre-Vatican II liturgy.” The event in question is the Notre Dame de Chrétienté Pentecost pilgrimage from Paris to Chartres, and the man said to be operating against its exclusive choice of the traditional liturgy is Cardinal Arthur Roche.

While it is impossible at this point to say whether the story is accurate, it has caused widespread surprise and reactions from pilgrims (a record 18,000 joined this year) and traditional circles the world over.

Jean des Tauriers, president of Notre Dame de Chrétienté, answered my questions about the report for LifeSite. Speaking of the Pilgrimage’s exclusive choice of the traditional liturgy, he made it abundantly clear that nothing would change, even if the doors of the Chartres cathedral were to remain shut next year. “We have a charter to which we are deeply attached, and a history that we love. We’ll stay true to it,” he said.

Here below is Jean de Tauriers’ full interview (translated from French by LifeSite):

A report in La Croix (1) that has been circulating all over the world claims that Cardinal Roche, working together with Monsignor Ulrich and Monsignor Christory, albeit to varying degrees, would like to re-examine the Chartres Pilgrimage and call into question the celebration of the traditional Mass, whether in Chartres Cathedral or elsewhere. Do you think this information from La Croix is accurate?

La Croix is a serious-minded newspaper. Very, very serious, certainly. I was interviewed by the journalist from La Croix, who asked me if I could confirm these rumors, but we have no information about such a move by Bishop Ulrich, so we don’t know anything about it. Now, I’m not surprised to hear that Bishop Christory is very displeased, especially since I personally heard him say that he’d like the closing Mass of our pilgrimage to be celebrated in the Ordinary Form. In the article, Bishop Christory says that Rome will decide.

So, what does this mean for us, for Notre Dame de Chrétienté? I cannot speak for all bishops, but in any case, the bishop of Chartres, and certainly the bishop of Paris, too, have a great deal of difficulty in accepting the fact that the spirituality of our pilgrimage is attached to the Extraordinary Form. This has been going on for 43 years. So this is nothing new. However much we tell them that we love the traditional Mass, that it’s been the spirituality of our pilgrimage for a long time; even though we tell them our numbers—because you have to talk numbers to impress them—however much we try to tell them what’s going on in our pilgrimage, to try to win their hearts, in the end, nothing works. What they want is for us to have private Masses or the closing Mass in the rite of Paul VI. In fact, they don’t accept our exclusive attachment to the traditional Mass. It’s as simple as that. There are certainly very deep-rooted reasons for all this; perhaps they also want to please certain authorities in Rome. Some [authorities], because I’m not sure everyone in Rome agrees on that point.

At the same time, there are rumors, but as always, we’re getting a lot of support  from all over the place. It reminds me of Traditionis Custodes: just after it was published, we had a lot of support from priests who are not at all so-called traditionalist priests, who encouraged us to stand firm in what is the right of every Catholic to be attached to this “traditional” mass. One wrote to me only this morning.

So, bearing in mind that we’re not sure whether this is a rumor or accurate information, let’s assume that it is. It seems to indicate that Cardinal Roche, prefect of the Dicastery for Divine Worship, is behind it all. However, it has also been said that the latest document he wanted to promote to further restrict the celebration of the traditional Mass has gone unheeded, remaining on the Pope’s desk. This information has not been directly confirmed, but isn’t this latest development perhaps a maneuver on his part to assert his authority in the face of a Pope Francis who doesn’t seem to want to go any further in this direction?

Perhaps, yes. I read these rumors every day. I don’t know Cardinal Roche, so it’s difficult for me to have a personal opinion. But the truth is, we remain very, very serene, very calm, and we’re ready to face up to any closing of any cathedral or church. And here again, I feel like saying that we’ve seen it all before. In my answer to La Croix, I was talking about bureaucracy, because we’re also being criticized for not having requested permission to celebrate traditional mass on Mondays at Chartres Cathedral, a Mass which, incidentally, was celebrated this year by Cardinal Müller. The journalist asked me if I had authorization from Rome, and I told him that Cardinal Müller came directly from Rome. But that doesn’t seem to be enough. Then, if there are forms to fill in, I imagine that Bishop Christory, who is very attached to administrative formalities, must have done so. It was he himself who invited Cardinal Muller.

Especially coming from a Church that claims to be more “open.”

Yes, it’s all absurd. In fact, the word is grotesque. It is grotesque. So we’re trying not to get worked up, to take it calmly, to get on with organizing our next pilgrimage, for which we are setting up the final plans. Well, we’ll have to make it an option to stay out of the cathedrals. Notre Dame de Paris isn’t open to us, but in theory we have what we need. As a precaution, I’m asking for confirmation! We did not get permission for Notre Dame de Paris, for some reason… Because the Archbishop of Paris didn’t want us, perhaps? But we got Saint-Sulpice. (2) We shall see. We’ve often talked to our young pilgrims about the early years, when we were outside and the cathedral doors were closed. They’ll experience it for themselves. Period.

Indeed, that’s how it all began. However, I read in the La Croix article, and it amused me, I must say: “In the same way, the use of pre-conciliar liturgical books on the plains of the Paris basin was not approved by the Roman authorities.” That’s quite funny, isn’t it?

We’re very much in touch with our pilgrims. The fun thing about Notre Dame de Chrétienté is that everyone has an opinion, and I really like that. Everyone has advice on strategy, on tactics, but in general, it’s always an encouragement to simply be who you are, I almost said: to stand firm. But that’s not it at all, it’s about being who you are. That’s quite simply what we do.

We have one major characteristic. We haven’t changed one iota in 43 years, we’re extremely predictable and it’s very clear what we’re going to say. I’ve been President for twelve years. I’m stepping down on January 18, but for twelve years I’ve made a point of repeating, at the risk of tiring the pilgrims, the positions of Notre Dame de Chrétienté, which have always been the positions of the Centre Henri et André Charlier (3): our exclusive attachment to the Tridentine rite, the reasons for which I explain. Nothing has changed, quite the contrary! The Church is in crisis, and families are rushing to this pilgrimage. They’re moving closer to the traditional rite precisely because of this crisis in the Church, and to simply pass on the faith to their children. We have a lot of families with children –5,000 of them: most of them are part of the traditional world. Of course, we also have many student pilgrims under the age of 20.  They may be less committed to the traditional world, but they still come for three days, and in ever-increasing numbers. Depending on their origins – Paris, the provinces, foreign countries – there are slightly different types of pilgrims, and we enjoy recognizing them every year. We know them well, and from everything I’ve read, they’re all very supportive.

There’s a huge attachment to this pilgrimage, so huge that people have wanted to multiply it. That’s why pilgrimages have sprung up in the provinces, in Provence and Brittany. Others are currently being prepared in other regions. And that’s what’s will happen.

The pilgrimage has had several cardinals as celebrants; there has been pontifical encouragement in the past. Isn’t that enough?

I don’t really know. I have the impression, to go back to the beginning of our conversation, that depending on the strata of the Curia, there are different approaches. It was said recently that Pope Francis had not accepted a text hardening Traditionis Custodes – I’m willing to believe that. But once again, it’s a bit confusing; we’re simple lay people from the end of the pew, and we don’t spend our time in Rome – I don’t know if we’d be received, by the way – trying to understand what certain high-ranking personalities think. We organize a pilgrimage. It’s a very complicated pilgrimage to organize, and it attracts a lot of people. There’s a lot of media hype around it, and that’s also what’s getting on some people’s nerves.

You have to understand that all the pilgrimages to Chartres have waned; one exception is the Tamil pilgrimage, which is still significant. The Notre Dame de Chrétienté pilgrimage is the other. The student pilgrimage has collapsed. I’m not at all saying that we’re the only ones who make good pilgrimages, or that we’re the last Catholics, but in the meantime, our pilgrimage is doing well.

If I were them, I’d come as a pilgrim. I’d try to encourage the valiant Catholics who come, and also the increasing numbers of non-practicing Catholics, who represent a colossal challenge for our organization. I experienced the first years when it was really 100 percent practising and traditionalist. That’s no longer the case. We have a majority of pilgrims who are attached to tradition, which doesn’t mean they’re 100 percent traditionalists, if you try to define all these words. But we also have – and this really interests me – non-practicing pilgrims, even from other religions. As a diocesan priest said to me recently, in a droll way – he’s not a big fan of Notre Dame de Chrétienté and our pilgrimage, even though he’s been there from time to time: “The Chartres Pilgrimage, today, in the French Church, is ‘the place to be’.” (4) Everyone wants to come, and this too is a very important challenge for us, because we have to explain our spirituality, the teachings we give, which is nothing other than the teaching of the Church. It’s nothing extraordinary, but there’s a catechetical requirement all the same.

After this year’s pilgrimage, some bishops, those in charge of ex-Ecclesia Dei movements, criticized our teachings on the four last things, which was the theme of the pilgrimage: “I want to see God.” I’d like someone to tell us exactly where what we’re saying in our booklets, which are widely read and circulated, isn’t Catholic theology or represents dangerous theology. I’d love to get into the specifics, but that’s not the case at all. They toss out things like that that are meant to destabilize. It doesn’t destabilize us at all because, once again, we’re very simple people with basic catechetical knowledge, but in which we still have a certain amount of confidence, even complete confidence. We were also told that we frightened our faithful, but that’s not the case at all: we explain the Church’s theology on the four last things, because it’s important and every Catholic should grasp it. Is it frightening? No, it’s not frightening, but it should be of concern.

Young people who are already convinced, of course, won’t be put off by what could possibly happen: let’s recall that nothing is certain at this point. But what about the others? Since youth is often rebellious, won’t this be a way of appealing to them even more?

I think so. I don’t want to say anything derogatory about the authorities. After all, we’ve got a lot of support from cardinals, bishops and a lot of French priests who aren’t necessarily “traditionalists” either. I believe that all this is well known in Catholic circles, since we are a pilgrimage of practising Catholics from fervent Catholic circles. I don’t think that a few more directives and administrative documents are going to stop any valiant pilgrims.

According to the article in La Croix, Bishop Christory didn’t get permission from the Vatican to hold a traditional Mass in his cathedral, and that’s where the problem lies. But on the one hand, if I were him, I’d be a little irritated to see my authority challenged in this way. And on the other hand, it has to be said that in many parts of the world, Traditionis Custodes is not applied to the letter, far from it.

Yes, exactly. We’re an international pilgrimage, so we see a lot of foreigners. I’m in touch with more and more international pilgrimages, and with the pilgrims who make them. It’s a Franco-French story, once again: there’s animosity towards the movement and that which we embody, because we’re a reaction to a crisis in the Church that’s been particularly strong in France. Our reaction is a criticism, even if it’s not a criticism of the attitude and behavior of pilgrims, especially pilgrims, many of whom are less than twenty years old. Well, the very fact that they are choosing this pilgrimage, in the eyes of certain bishops – a very small number – is a rejection of a whole reform movement which, incidentally, has been catastrophic for the Church, but to which they remain very attached. They see this traditional reaction, which is so strong in France, as a disavowal, as a criticism of what they have done; a criticism of their masters, because they are now between 60 and 70 years old. They didn’t know the 1960s at all, but they were trained in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, and that counts for a lot. We, too, are as our masters trained us. And that’s fine, because we’ve had some very good masters. In any case, I was lucky enough to have parents who were able to react and be with really good priests. I’m grateful to my parents for that, and it’s very important. So, in fact, it’s true that you’re trained by your masters and your parents. I think that’s true for everyone.

I think that in some people, probably those with more authoritarian temperaments, who are very firm in their convictions and certainly have modernist tendencies, that’s where this somewhat implacable side comes from, this resentment, this desire to suppress, to impose, not to understand, not to adapt… These are also often reactions out of simple obedience. In any case, we will continue. We’ve turned away so many thousands of people this year, that if some of them don’t like it, well, they won’t make the Chartres pilgrimage, and we’ll get other people who are more in tune with what we’re supporting, who’ll come and pray with us, and for the Holy Church for that matter.

Who will celebrate Mass on Whit Monday next June?

We haven’t yet chosen the celebrant, but we do know that the homily will be given by Bishop Christory. On the occasion of the millennium of the crypt of Chartres Cathedral and of the Jubilee of the Church, he wanted to give the homily on the theme of the year, which is “Christ the King: That He may reign.” That was the plan. Now, if the cathedral is closed to us – I’m ruling out this hypothesis, but let’s pretend – if his cathedral were closed, Bishop Christory might authorize himself to give the homily outside the cathedral, which he will have closed himself. In any case, we’d certainly allow him to do so.

As president of Notre Dame de Chrétienté, you’re handing over to Philippe Darentière. Are you exactly on the same wavelength on this subject?

We’re different – after all, we have different characters and that’s great. That’s also why we’re changing presidents, because it’s good to have different personalities. It’s been twelve years for me, and after twelve years, I think it’s a very good thing. I’m staying, of course, because when you’re a pilgrim, when you’re committed, you stay for a long time. I’ve been involved in organizing the pilgrimage for a very long time, and I’ll be staying on alongside Philippe to help him take on the role of president. There are no changes to Notre Dame de Chrétienté’s commitments. With Notre Dame de Chrétienté, we don’t change the program. In fact, we don’t have a program, or rather it’s been fixed once and for all. I’ll never understand associations and communities whose only wish is to change their charter, change their programs, change their fundamentals, as if that were what was required of ordinary members of an association or a community. We’re certainly not going to do that. We have a charter to which we are deeply attached, and a history that we love. We tell it to our young pilgrims, at the risk of wearying them at times, but we tell it anyway. We’ll stay true to it.

My final question refers to Bishop Christory. When interviewed directly in the La Croix report, he spoke of the many “fruits” of the pilgrimage. In the world of tradition in general, we see that the faith is passed on, that it is missionary, since non-practicing faithful or non-Catholics make the pilgrimage. Do you think that the traditional Mass plays a pre-eminent role in its capacity to transmit or propose the faith?

Yes, I do. Of course, it’s the good Lord who converts.  When I say that we are missionaries, I often say that we are missionaries thanks to the traditional Mass. People will often correct me: I’m told that it’s God who converts. Of course – but thanks to the traditional Mass… That’s precisely one of the ways in which we are different. And they can’t accept that it’s through an ancient liturgy they don’t know, because the liturgy was reformed in 1969. It’s impossible for them to accept that this attachment to an ancient, venerable form of the Church can have an effect and convert souls. It’s extremely odd: it’s a clear denial of reality, when everything we see, everything we observe, tells us the opposite. What’s needed is a truly pastoral approach: for them to open their hearts and see what’s going on. Often on Pentecost Sunday afternoon, Bishop Christory comes to walk with the pilgrims, he knows them well and he sees the fruits. He even says so, and thanks to him for that. But all of this is linked to these priests, to this liturgy, to these sacraments, and also to this teaching that we nowadays call the “traditional pedagogies of the faith.” It’s all this that makes for conversion: it is the setting that enables conversion. In any case, it’s what we see, and what we profoundly believe.

I find it incredibly unwise to want to change something that works. In the commercial companies where I’ve worked for a long time, well, when something works, the main thing is to increase efficiency: to duplicate what works and you’re on the lookout for that. You always start from reality. These people who reject the efficiency of the traditional mass don’t want to admit what is happening before our very eyes. It’s all very mysterious.

(1) La Croix is the unofficial daily newspaper of the French episcopate.

(2) The pilgrimage has started from the large Parisian church of Saint-Sulpice since the 2019 fire in Notre-Dame.

(3) The Centre Henri and André Charlier is a “cultural center” founded by Bernard Antony in 1980; it gave birth to the Chartres pilgrimage in 1982 when at a summer university of the movement Bernard Antony and Catholic journalist Rémi Fontaine suggested to revive a movement launched in 1912 by the poet Charles Péguy, in the spirit of the Czestochowa pilgrimage in Poland.

(4) The English expression was used in the original French text of this interview.

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1 posted on 12/10/2024 10:07:33 AM PST by ebb tide

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2 posted on 12/10/2024 10:08:12 AM PST by ebb tide (Pray for the conversion of Pope Francis and the cardinals he has appointed.)

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3 posted on 12/10/2024 10:37:54 AM PST by chopperk (airhi)

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4 posted on 12/10/2024 10:53:10 AM PST by irishjuggler

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