RFK Jr. Clashes With CNN Host on COVID-19 Pandemic Handling, Vaccines

Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. defended his agency’s response to measles outbreaks, criticized how the United States handled the COVID-19 pandemic, and said that protecting constitutional rights is imperative during future health emergencies, during a contentious interview on CNN on Aug. 2.

Cases of measles hit the highest number in one year since 1991, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on July 24, with about five months to go until the end of the year.

That “is happening on your watch,” Dana Bash, host of CNN’s “State of the Union,” told Kennedy. “And even before becoming HHS secretary, for years, you have been one of the leading voices questioning the efficacy of vaccines. Do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak?”

“Absolutely not,” Kennedy responded.

He pointed out how some other countries, such as Canada and Mexico, have recorded more measles cases per capita in recent months.

“Did I cause those measles outbreaks?” he said.

“You’re the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet,” Bash replied.

Kennedy has in the past questioned the safety of vaccines and whether they are effective. In 2025, he said that the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine was the best way to protect against measles but that the shot had not been “safety tested” and its effectiveness “wanes very quickly.”

Kennedy on Sunday pointed to the diary of Dr. Anthony Fauci, who was a top government official for decades before retiring in 2022. The diary, released in July, showed that Fauci had a conversation with the director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention about “unintended consequences” of shutting down the country during the COVID-19 pandemic.

“Had conversation with Bob Redfield lastr [sic] night about the fact that >1 million children world-wide have missed their measles vaccinations because of the shutdown,” Fauci wrote on May 6, 2020. “This is terrible and needs to be addressed since on that basis alone, there would be far, far more excess deaths from measles among children than coronavirus deaths among children.”

Kennedy told Bash that age group “that should have gotten the MMR when they were 18 months and didn’t get it, they’re the ones being infected.”

Some 92.5 percent of kindergartners had received an MMR vaccine, according to data from 2024 and 2025, down from 95 percent in 2019 and 2020. About half of the measles cases in America this year have been among people aged 5 to 19, according to the CDC, and 93 percent of the cases have been among people marked unvaccinated or as having unknown vaccination status.

“The communities that are suffering from measles are almost all religious communities that just don’t vaccinate,” Kennedy also said. “The Mennonites have not vaccinated since 1796, since Edward Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine. It’s hard to blame that on me, as much as you want to blame it on me.”

The process above shows the steps taken by Dr. Edward Jenner to create the smallpox vaccine, beginning with inoculating James Phipps with cowpox, a virus similar to smallpox, to create immunity. Illustration by The Epoch Times

HHS has said previously that Kennedy supports MMR vaccination, but that people have the right to choose not to receive the vaccine. The CDC recommends two doses of the vaccine for virtually all individuals during childhood.

Kennedy also said on Sunday that his agency has helped states stop measles outbreaks, in part by deploying CDC personnel.

Handling of COVID-19 Pandemic

Kennedy, a frequent critic of Fauci, said that the response to the COVID-19 pandemic, which started under President Donald Trump and continued into the Biden administration, was not handled well.

“I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns, lockdowns that shut down 3.5 million businesses in our country with no due process, no just compensation, all of our churches, closed our schools, and our children are still paying the price for that,” Kennedy said on CNN.

He also noted that the United States had a high rate of deaths attributed to COVID-19 and said that means the response did not work well.

Bash pointed to a 2024 social media post from Kennedy in which he said that Trump “said he'd put America first; instead he let bureaucrats like Tony Fauci shut down the entire country.” Kennedy was running for president at the time.

“The president was trying to reopen the country when he left,” Kennedy responded. “The country was kept closed for another year, almost a year-and-a-half after that.”

A sign displays mask wearing information at Penn Station in New York on Aug. 2, 2021. Kena Betancur/AFP via Getty Images

Bash said: “The lockdowns were done by governors. I mean, certainly, Anthony Fauci and the president had opinions, but the lockdowns were done by governors.”

Kennedy cited portions of Fauci’s diary in which the doctor said he convinced the mayor of New York City and the governor of California to close schools.

Bash was mentioned in the diary. On April 17, 2021, after Fauci appeared before a House of Representatives panel and faced questions from Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio), Fauci said Bash texted him to say “you’re a better man than I.”

Bash, who had Fauci on her show during the pandemic on multiple occasions, did not mention the texts on Sunday.

Future Pandemics

Bash then asked Kennedy how he would prevent future pandemics, and how he would prepare for pandemics that might happen.

Kennedy said that one key move is ending research that adds one or more functions to a pathogen. The United States funded such research in Wuhan, China, where the first COVID-19 cases appeared.

Members of the World Health Organization team investigating the origins of the COVID-19 virus arrive by car at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in Wuhan, Hubei Province, China, on Feb. 3, 2021. Hector Retamal/AFP via Getty Images

“The scientists who you say are experts are making the argument that this is necessary for pandemic response cannot point to one instance in history where research that came out of this kind of experimentation has actually provided us something beneficial,” he said.

With regards to future pandemics, it is important to listen to doctors who are treating patients, Kennedy said.

“They’re mainly now connected through the Internet. We can tell on the front lines what’s working and what’s not. If we had listened to those doctors during the COVID pandemic, we would have saved potentially millions of lives,” Kennedy said. “There were therapeutics out there that were working. There were doctors that were having no deaths from COVID and treating in some cases thousands of patients.”

It is also imperative to protect constitutional rights, said Kennedy, who himself faced bans from social media companies that were pressured by government officials.

“During COVID, we completely dismantled our constitutional rights. We began censoring people, in violation of the First Amendment,” Kennedy said.

“But you’re saying what not to do. I’m asking what to do,” Bash said.

“Well, that’s something to do. That is the number one priority. We protect the Constitution,” Kennedy said.

Bash said she did not “want to use this interview to allow you to say things that aren’t entirely true” and that the COVID-19 vaccine prevented deaths.

“There is data upon data,” she said.

A COVID-19 vaccination and testing site is set up outside of Yankee Stadium in New York City on April 8, 2022. Spencer Platt/Getty Images

Kennedy said Bash should cite a study proving the vaccine protected children. After a back-and-forth, she did not.

“I can tell you that, when it comes to the vaccine, there have been studies that show that, because of vaccine disinformation, disinformation, there could have been 100,000 to 200,000 in the U.S. saved. But because people didn’t get the vaccine, that’s why,” Bash said.

“You are saying nonsense. You are saying something that you cannot show me a single study,” Kennedy said.

Bash later said that people “made mistakes” in the response to COVID-19. She said that CNN coverage was focused in part on providing updates from the leaders of the country.

“Were you reading the science yourself?” Kennedy asked.

That’s when Bash shifted to discussing measles.